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	<title>Comments on: On X-Men Origins: Wolverine</title>
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	<description>Movies as mythologically informed literature.</description>
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		<title>By: John David Ebert</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-1008</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 00:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-1008</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t read Jaynes yet, but his idea of dismissing all the gods of the ancient world as mere auditory hallucinations doesn&#039;t sound very promising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t read Jaynes yet, but his idea of dismissing all the gods of the ancient world as mere auditory hallucinations doesn&#8217;t sound very promising.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques de Beaufort</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-1006</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques de Beaufort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 07:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-1006</guid>
		<description>Nomadic wanderers lived very short lives despite being unchained to mortgage obligations. It seems that it is in our nature to be discomforted by something no matter what. Modern man is frazzled by techne, Mesoamericans were demon-haunted. The Abelam people of New Guinea worship yams....

Maybe its the Ego itself that is the source of all this. What do you make of Julian Jaynes thesis..?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nomadic wanderers lived very short lives despite being unchained to mortgage obligations. It seems that it is in our nature to be discomforted by something no matter what. Modern man is frazzled by techne, Mesoamericans were demon-haunted. The Abelam people of New Guinea worship yams&#8230;.</p>
<p>Maybe its the Ego itself that is the source of all this. What do you make of Julian Jaynes thesis..?</p>
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		<title>By: John David Ebert</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-1003</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-1003</guid>
		<description>Well, the images and narratives that come up out of the deep psyche are often completely at odds to our conscious waking orientation. Jung would say that they are &quot;compensatory&quot; to our waking orientation, seeking to redress imbalances that the conscious psyche is overlooking, while McLuhan would say that they are capturing and making visible invisible environments (usually technological ones) which are invisible because of their very omnipresence. The reason that they are omnipresent, of course, is because everyone is consciously agreeing to build and construct them. But the waking mind often gets off course and gets wrapped up in plans and projects that are totally rejected by the supramind of the body and the instincts, and most often, the movies that come out of our imagination are expressions of these deeper instincts. And what these deeper instincts are telling us is that we are under attack by our machines.

Any culture that obsessively reiterates a motif or a theme or an image in its works of art is trying to work something out that is difficult or that has caught it and tangled it up somehow. Take the Mesoamericans, for instance: the central image of this civilization is that of a great beast, jaguar, demon or monster with open jaws inside of which a human being, usually an ancestor, is struggling to emerge. This means that Mesoamerican civilization was swallowed up by its regression to the bestial level of the instincts and the cult of shamanism with its animal-oriented and astral-plane influenced demonology. This is a civilization that did not have a problem with technology, for it was, comparably speaking, very low tech. Instead, the primary problem which beset it was that of dealing with the astral plane and struggling to retain their humanity and individuality against being depersonalized and disintegrated by astral forces.

In the opening image of the movie A.I. on the other hand, we are treated to an analogous image that functions in a similar way for us: a woman&#039;s face is opened up to reveal that she is actually not really human at all, despite appearances, but is a cleverly manufactured robot simulacrum of a human being. Here the celluloid image is an X-ray into the central problem that our civilization is finding it difficult to deal with and that is the problem of the machine. 

Perhaps we find the nomadic wanderer attractive -- at least unconsciously -- because it offers us a glimpse of the freedom that we do not have being chained to mortgage, credit card debt and nine to five jobs. The wanderer is a vision of a human being who comes into the System from outside and because he is not part of the System or captured by it, he can see the situation more clearly of those who are trapped within it, and therefore can act more objectively as a savior figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the images and narratives that come up out of the deep psyche are often completely at odds to our conscious waking orientation. Jung would say that they are &#8220;compensatory&#8221; to our waking orientation, seeking to redress imbalances that the conscious psyche is overlooking, while McLuhan would say that they are capturing and making visible invisible environments (usually technological ones) which are invisible because of their very omnipresence. The reason that they are omnipresent, of course, is because everyone is consciously agreeing to build and construct them. But the waking mind often gets off course and gets wrapped up in plans and projects that are totally rejected by the supramind of the body and the instincts, and most often, the movies that come out of our imagination are expressions of these deeper instincts. And what these deeper instincts are telling us is that we are under attack by our machines.</p>
<p>Any culture that obsessively reiterates a motif or a theme or an image in its works of art is trying to work something out that is difficult or that has caught it and tangled it up somehow. Take the Mesoamericans, for instance: the central image of this civilization is that of a great beast, jaguar, demon or monster with open jaws inside of which a human being, usually an ancestor, is struggling to emerge. This means that Mesoamerican civilization was swallowed up by its regression to the bestial level of the instincts and the cult of shamanism with its animal-oriented and astral-plane influenced demonology. This is a civilization that did not have a problem with technology, for it was, comparably speaking, very low tech. Instead, the primary problem which beset it was that of dealing with the astral plane and struggling to retain their humanity and individuality against being depersonalized and disintegrated by astral forces.</p>
<p>In the opening image of the movie A.I. on the other hand, we are treated to an analogous image that functions in a similar way for us: a woman&#8217;s face is opened up to reveal that she is actually not really human at all, despite appearances, but is a cleverly manufactured robot simulacrum of a human being. Here the celluloid image is an X-ray into the central problem that our civilization is finding it difficult to deal with and that is the problem of the machine. </p>
<p>Perhaps we find the nomadic wanderer attractive &#8212; at least unconsciously &#8212; because it offers us a glimpse of the freedom that we do not have being chained to mortgage, credit card debt and nine to five jobs. The wanderer is a vision of a human being who comes into the System from outside and because he is not part of the System or captured by it, he can see the situation more clearly of those who are trapped within it, and therefore can act more objectively as a savior figure.</p>
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		<title>By: John Lobell</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-1001</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lobell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-1001</guid>
		<description>More thoughts on X-Men Origins: Wolverine, by John Lobell

I wrote in my review of Star Trek on this site about our cultureâ€™s continued movement toward domesticating us with cradle to grave control of every aspect of our lives, while the heroes in our movies are going in the opposite direction, toward the undomesticated individual warrior. 

This valorization of the undomesticated individual warrior has not always been the case. Indeed many of the Westerns of the 1950s were about settling down. In the 1954 movie, Vera Cruz, Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster play mercenaries in Mexico. Lancasterâ€™s character, while charming, enjoys killing and wants the gold (the MacGuffin) for himself. Cooperâ€™s character fights to make money to recover his ranch lost while he was serving in the Civil War, and wants to give the gold to the virtuous rebels. Virtuous is the man of the land.

The most important Western is, of course, Shane. Here the free roving cattle ranchers who hate fences die, their gun fighter (Jack Palance) dies, and the gun fighter hero, Shane played by Alan Ladd, probably dies. The peaceful farmers live on.

In the classic westerns, if the gun fighters were heroes, they were reluctant gun fighters, longing to get back to the land and a good woman. A mythology to redomesticate the soldiers returning from World War II. That ends in the 60s with the Sergio Leoneâ€™s Westerns staring Clint Eastwood.

Unlike his brother, Wolverine is a reluctant warrior, but he is a warrior, and at the end of the movie, he is without a woman, without a home, and without memory. A pure warrior.

So I return to the question that I posed in my Star Trek essay: if we are all in communitarian agreement on the domestication of our once independent natures, why are our movies going in the opposite direction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More thoughts on X-Men Origins: Wolverine, by John Lobell</p>
<p>I wrote in my review of Star Trek on this site about our cultureâ€™s continued movement toward domesticating us with cradle to grave control of every aspect of our lives, while the heroes in our movies are going in the opposite direction, toward the undomesticated individual warrior. </p>
<p>This valorization of the undomesticated individual warrior has not always been the case. Indeed many of the Westerns of the 1950s were about settling down. In the 1954 movie, Vera Cruz, Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster play mercenaries in Mexico. Lancasterâ€™s character, while charming, enjoys killing and wants the gold (the MacGuffin) for himself. Cooperâ€™s character fights to make money to recover his ranch lost while he was serving in the Civil War, and wants to give the gold to the virtuous rebels. Virtuous is the man of the land.</p>
<p>The most important Western is, of course, Shane. Here the free roving cattle ranchers who hate fences die, their gun fighter (Jack Palance) dies, and the gun fighter hero, Shane played by Alan Ladd, probably dies. The peaceful farmers live on.</p>
<p>In the classic westerns, if the gun fighters were heroes, they were reluctant gun fighters, longing to get back to the land and a good woman. A mythology to redomesticate the soldiers returning from World War II. That ends in the 60s with the Sergio Leoneâ€™s Westerns staring Clint Eastwood.</p>
<p>Unlike his brother, Wolverine is a reluctant warrior, but he is a warrior, and at the end of the movie, he is without a woman, without a home, and without memory. A pure warrior.</p>
<p>So I return to the question that I posed in my Star Trek essay: if we are all in communitarian agreement on the domestication of our once independent natures, why are our movies going in the opposite direction?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques de Beaufort</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-1000</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques de Beaufort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-1000</guid>
		<description>fascinating stuff JDE...you are living encyclopedia.

I always like to invoke Oscar Wilde whenever discussions of masks occur:

&quot;Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fascinating stuff JDE&#8230;you are living encyclopedia.</p>
<p>I always like to invoke Oscar Wilde whenever discussions of masks occur:</p>
<p>&#8220;Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: John David Ebert</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-999</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 03:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-999</guid>
		<description>Yes, that mask looks almost Japanese or perhaps even Balinese would be better. Have you read Levi-Strauss&#039;s book &quot;The Way of the Masks&quot;? He specifically focuses on Kwakiutl masks, identifying two types, one with mouth open, the Tsonoqua type, and one with lolling tongue. The Tsonoqua  type is of a female monster that is related to the Sasquatch myth while the type with the lolling tongue Levi-Strauss suggests is that of a fish hanging out of the mouth. But the lolling tongue type resembles the t&#039;ao t&#039;ieh motif more than anything else, the mask with the lolling tongue that is symbolic of human sacrifice from India to the New World.

Masks are fascinating stuff. The oldest surviving masks in the world are from Neolithic Palestine, where we find masks made out of stone that seem to resemble skulls. The first masks thus probably represented ancestral spirits of the dead. And at about the same time we have the practice at Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jericho of adorning skulls with plaster and cowrie shells for eyes which is obviously part of an ancestor cult. But it is possible that mask-making took its origins from such adorning of the skulls of the dead. 

I like to think of mask-making -- still evoked at Halloween --as fundamentally connected with the cult of the dead and wearing the faces of dead ancestors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that mask looks almost Japanese or perhaps even Balinese would be better. Have you read Levi-Strauss&#8217;s book &#8220;The Way of the Masks&#8221;? He specifically focuses on Kwakiutl masks, identifying two types, one with mouth open, the Tsonoqua type, and one with lolling tongue. The Tsonoqua  type is of a female monster that is related to the Sasquatch myth while the type with the lolling tongue Levi-Strauss suggests is that of a fish hanging out of the mouth. But the lolling tongue type resembles the t&#8217;ao t&#8217;ieh motif more than anything else, the mask with the lolling tongue that is symbolic of human sacrifice from India to the New World.</p>
<p>Masks are fascinating stuff. The oldest surviving masks in the world are from Neolithic Palestine, where we find masks made out of stone that seem to resemble skulls. The first masks thus probably represented ancestral spirits of the dead. And at about the same time we have the practice at Pre-Pottery Neolithic Jericho of adorning skulls with plaster and cowrie shells for eyes which is obviously part of an ancestor cult. But it is possible that mask-making took its origins from such adorning of the skulls of the dead. </p>
<p>I like to think of mask-making &#8212; still evoked at Halloween &#8211;as fundamentally connected with the cult of the dead and wearing the faces of dead ancestors.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques de Beaufort</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-998</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques de Beaufort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 23:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-998</guid>
		<description>It IS erie how similar Shang motifs are to Maya glyphs....that was my first thought when I came across them. Take a look at this Kwakiutl mask, something about it is very &quot;Asian&quot;:

http://www.masksoftheworld.com/NoAmerica/Native%20American%20Mask%20Kwakiutl.htm

Evolutionary scientists have identified this trend among species..&quot;convergent evolution&quot;. Sheldrake&#039;s morphogenic (genetic?) field seems to be the applicable cultural model. I always felt that the reason so many cultures developed ceremonial architectures that resembled pyramids was because they were just looking to nature for a model and the obvious inspiration was the Mountain. I don&#039;t know if there was ancient trans-pacific naval travel though. Seems like Rapanui was as far as the Polynesians were able to settle. What&#039;s clear to me is that even if these peoples did not communicate directly in &quot;meat space&quot;, they did share a spiritual realm and probably interacted freely within this dimension. 

I know you are writing a book about the Cult of the Dead...
I was always fascinated by the DMT experience that McKenna described and his conclusion that the entities he encountered were probably spirits of dead people. This is satisfying somehow..it&#039;s very sad to think of death as so final and devastating. We always want to forge a connection to eternity and escape the  limits of our mortal bodies. Futurists believe that we will soon be able to download our consciousness into an infinite realm of Aeonic light...but to me this strangely Gnostic techno-topian singularity seems  oxy-moronic. The manipulation of material through techne has never produced anything but more or different material.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It IS erie how similar Shang motifs are to Maya glyphs&#8230;.that was my first thought when I came across them. Take a look at this Kwakiutl mask, something about it is very &#8220;Asian&#8221;:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.masksoftheworld.com/NoAmerica/Native%20American%20Mask%20Kwakiutl.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.masksoftheworld.com/NoAmerica/Native%20American%20Mask%20Kwakiutl.htm</a></p>
<p>Evolutionary scientists have identified this trend among species..&#8221;convergent evolution&#8221;. Sheldrake&#8217;s morphogenic (genetic?) field seems to be the applicable cultural model. I always felt that the reason so many cultures developed ceremonial architectures that resembled pyramids was because they were just looking to nature for a model and the obvious inspiration was the Mountain. I don&#8217;t know if there was ancient trans-pacific naval travel though. Seems like Rapanui was as far as the Polynesians were able to settle. What&#8217;s clear to me is that even if these peoples did not communicate directly in &#8220;meat space&#8221;, they did share a spiritual realm and probably interacted freely within this dimension. </p>
<p>I know you are writing a book about the Cult of the Dead&#8230;<br />
I was always fascinated by the DMT experience that McKenna described and his conclusion that the entities he encountered were probably spirits of dead people. This is satisfying somehow..it&#8217;s very sad to think of death as so final and devastating. We always want to forge a connection to eternity and escape the  limits of our mortal bodies. Futurists believe that we will soon be able to download our consciousness into an infinite realm of Aeonic light&#8230;but to me this strangely Gnostic techno-topian singularity seems  oxy-moronic. The manipulation of material through techne has never produced anything but more or different material.</p>
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		<title>By: John David Ebert</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-997</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Ebert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 22:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-997</guid>
		<description>Yes, and the zone in particular that you are talking about stretches from equatorial Africa across the Pacific Ocean to the New World and was identified by Leo Frobenius as one of his Kulturkreis zones, that is to say, an area full of shared motifs, myths and artistic styles. The bent knee posture of ancestor figurines, for example, is found distributed throughout this zone, as is also the totem pole and the tradition of mask-making and wearing. This is the great zone of ancestor worship, if we also throw in China and Japan, and so it is extremely conservative. So any similarities between traditions found in this zone, no matter how far apart, should come as no surprise. This is why we find so many motifs shared in common between China, for example, and the Mesoamerican civilizations (and which is not only unrecognized amongst Mesoamerican scholars but specifically denounced by them as a heresy since their specialization forces them to pretend that they are blind to all the other traditions). Between the Chinese and the Mesoamericans, for example, we find the use of jade and cinnabar in grave burials, the custom of placing jade beads in the mouth of the dead, ancestor worship, sky dragons that bring rain, turquoise or greenstone mosaics, similar artistic motifs such as the t&#039;ao t&#039;ieh and so on. Once, about ten or fifteen years ago, one of the news magazines featured an article about a Beijing scholar who claimed he could read Shang Dynasty hieroglyphs carved onto the jade celts of the Olmecs. All of which is complete and total heresy amongst academics since they want to force the world to conform to Euro-American standards of scholarly specialization. The world, however, could care less about Euro-American specialization in the universities and goes its own way without the slightest concern for the narrow minded prejudices and biases of New World scholars. Such motifs are spread across this culture zone, and it is clear to me, at any rate, that the Chinese had a hand at some point in Mesoamerica, probably about the time of the rise of the Olmec which is when the tradition of jade carving first suddenly appears along with all these other motifs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, and the zone in particular that you are talking about stretches from equatorial Africa across the Pacific Ocean to the New World and was identified by Leo Frobenius as one of his Kulturkreis zones, that is to say, an area full of shared motifs, myths and artistic styles. The bent knee posture of ancestor figurines, for example, is found distributed throughout this zone, as is also the totem pole and the tradition of mask-making and wearing. This is the great zone of ancestor worship, if we also throw in China and Japan, and so it is extremely conservative. So any similarities between traditions found in this zone, no matter how far apart, should come as no surprise. This is why we find so many motifs shared in common between China, for example, and the Mesoamerican civilizations (and which is not only unrecognized amongst Mesoamerican scholars but specifically denounced by them as a heresy since their specialization forces them to pretend that they are blind to all the other traditions). Between the Chinese and the Mesoamericans, for example, we find the use of jade and cinnabar in grave burials, the custom of placing jade beads in the mouth of the dead, ancestor worship, sky dragons that bring rain, turquoise or greenstone mosaics, similar artistic motifs such as the t&#8217;ao t&#8217;ieh and so on. Once, about ten or fifteen years ago, one of the news magazines featured an article about a Beijing scholar who claimed he could read Shang Dynasty hieroglyphs carved onto the jade celts of the Olmecs. All of which is complete and total heresy amongst academics since they want to force the world to conform to Euro-American standards of scholarly specialization. The world, however, could care less about Euro-American specialization in the universities and goes its own way without the slightest concern for the narrow minded prejudices and biases of New World scholars. Such motifs are spread across this culture zone, and it is clear to me, at any rate, that the Chinese had a hand at some point in Mesoamerica, probably about the time of the rise of the Olmec which is when the tradition of jade carving first suddenly appears along with all these other motifs.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques de Beaufort</title>
		<link>http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/comment-page-1/#comment-996</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques de Beaufort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 22:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cinemadiscourse.com/2009/05/30/on-x-men-origins-wolverine/#comment-996</guid>
		<description>very interesting..

I&#039;m currently teaching a World art class and just assigned a project where the students had to compare the Tatanua mask rituals of New Ireland to the Kwakiutl masks of the Pacific NW. It&#039;s very interesting to me that two cultures so distant in time and space have evolved such a similar method of worship with regards to their ancestor spirits. I&#039;m sure this could be said of countless other cultures and tribes that engage in animistic and totemistic practices. 

The Pre-Columbian religion of the Americas was largely polytheistic, shamanistic, and animistic with the exception of the Inka, who&#039;s sun-orship and theocratic style of governance starts to resemble something more henotheistic if not monotheistic. Makes me think of the other great proto-monotheist figure, Akhenaten. I wonder what specific cultural factors have allowed the consolidation of spiritual and ideological power beneath the umbrella of a spiritual mono-culture and away from the more heterogenous practices that come before them ? More importantly, what allows these cultural practices once established to resist spiritual variety with such great tenacity ? Any thoughts ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very interesting..</p>
<p>I&#8217;m currently teaching a World art class and just assigned a project where the students had to compare the Tatanua mask rituals of New Ireland to the Kwakiutl masks of the Pacific NW. It&#8217;s very interesting to me that two cultures so distant in time and space have evolved such a similar method of worship with regards to their ancestor spirits. I&#8217;m sure this could be said of countless other cultures and tribes that engage in animistic and totemistic practices. </p>
<p>The Pre-Columbian religion of the Americas was largely polytheistic, shamanistic, and animistic with the exception of the Inka, who&#8217;s sun-orship and theocratic style of governance starts to resemble something more henotheistic if not monotheistic. Makes me think of the other great proto-monotheist figure, Akhenaten. I wonder what specific cultural factors have allowed the consolidation of spiritual and ideological power beneath the umbrella of a spiritual mono-culture and away from the more heterogenous practices that come before them ? More importantly, what allows these cultural practices once established to resist spiritual variety with such great tenacity ? Any thoughts ?</p>
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